Atlanta to Winnipeg: The Unfolding Story
Monday · May 23 · 2011 | 12:00 PM PDT
Despite passing the midway point of the Conference Finals this weekend, the hot topic seems to have been the future of the Atlanta Thrashers and whether or not it will be in Canada. Winnipeg, specifically.
My inbox is filling up with questions about the situation. I'm not an expert on this particular subject so I'd like to defer to those who are. Like many of you, I've been reading a lot about what may or may not be going down.
To make this easy, I've assembled a list of articles from well-repected sources to paint a picture of all that's going on with regard to this subject. But first I should say something.
Thrashers fans protest relocation / TSN.caAs I've reviewed my post from Friday about the Thrashers' imminent move, my bias is clearer to me. As a fellow hockey fan from a southern state, I feel for Thrashers faithful who are on the brink of losing the team they love.
I'm bothered by the apparent heartlessness of Winnipeg residents who should know what it's like to have a franchise ripped right out from them. But it's not heartlessness, is it?
If we step back and look at the numbers, it's hard to argue with them. How can we expect them to feel bad for Atlanta when all they've wanted for 15 years is to have their team back?
Add to that, the hundreds, even thousands of diehard Thrashers fans are dwarfed by an entire city of more than a half-million that would live and die by the team. That's awfully hard to deny.
If it's a question of who deserves it more — and it shouldn't be — who wins out? Atlanta has the team now. They've supported it (mostly) for 12 years. But from everything I've read, it sounds like the ownership, Atlanta Spirit, has let them down. So it's hard to blame the fans in Georgia. And it's just as hard to tell the folks in Manitoba to subdue their excitement.
I still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey. (Remember, you keep coming back to read a hockey blog written by a Floridian.) But I recognize the predicament both cities are in. Now, having said all that — which I'm sure most of you didn't bother to read — here are the bullet points from the weekend.
- Deal! On Thursday night, Stephen Brunt of the Globe and Mail (Toronto) reported the deal was done and the Thrashers are moving to Winnipeg for the 2011-12 season. He said an announcement would be made Tuesday (tomorrow). details
- No Deal Everyone else, including TSN, reported that, in fact, no deal had been done — yet. But that it's just a matter of time. details
- Moving Day On Friday, TSN reported that some players had been told to start working on new real estate plans for the fall. details
- Contingency Plan On Saturday, the St. John's Telegram said the AHL's Manitoba Moose will be announcing their relocation to Newfoundland on Friday. This assumes a deal to move the Thrashers is completed by then. details
- Inching Closer As of this morning, things are still looking grim for Atlanta as, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, True North Sports and Entertainment continues to close in on a deal. It has become highly unlikely anyone will come along to keep the team in Georgia. details
Part of TSN's online coverage of the NHL's possible return to Winnipeg has included what they call the Jets Meter — a subjective scale based on the likelihood of it happening. As of today, they're five rungs from dropping the puck. So they're pretty positive about this.
For the longest time, it looked like the Phoenix Coyotes were the most likely victim, set to return to their Winnipeg Jets glory — until the city of Glendale took action to squash that dream. Now it's become the Thrashers. Only they wouldn't be called the Jets since that's part of the Coyotes' heritage. So for the rest of this post, we'll assume the deal goes through this week. What happens then?
- Last month, SportsLogos.net reported that the only way the Jets name would come back is if the Coyotes did too. Because it looks to be the Thrashers, that's probably out. Instead, TNSE, the likely new owners, would bank on their existing hockey brand — the Manitoba Moose. details
- Last Tuesday, TSN pointed out that whatever the name, it would likely be preceded by Manitoba rather than Winnipeg this time. They then asked what the team should be named. It yielded a variety of responses from readers including Monarchs, Boomerangs, Rebels, Lakers, and yes, even Thrashers. But Jets remains the most popular. details
- On Thursday, TSN writer Dave Naylor discussed the love for that Jets name in Winnipeg. In particular, he wondered why the Thrashers couldn't take on that moniker even though it is part of the Coyotes' history. After all, it wouldn't be a first in pro sports. Just ask the Cleveland Browns. details
Whatever happens, I'll keep an eye on it — especially as far as the name and logo are concerned. And keep an eye on the Icethetics Twitter feed in the sidebar as I frequently post or retweet useful links there.
Reader Comments (44)
I still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey.
AMEN. I couldn't have said it better myself
Just to counter the notion that "everyone else" disagreed with Stephen Brunt's piece in The Globe and Mail, both RDS (the Quebec version of TSN), and Nick Kypreos of Sportsnet tweeted that they'd gotten confirmation of the deal... (might as well give credit where credit is due - give Brunt his props - we'll see if his Tuesday announcement comes true or not...)
"I still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey."
Amen Chris, amen. I am born n raised in Calgary, 26 years, and I've always loved hockey. Not becasue of my nationality, or that it snows here. But because I love the game. It's fast, exciting and physical. I have played soccer for 21 years now, having been 1st generation Canadian to very Scottish parents....but even then, it never changed my love of either sport. I've had people say to me that the sunbelt doesn't deserve hockey for a laundry list of specious reason. No fans, climate and heritage are usually the leading reasons. Yet at the same time, those same people chastise me for having played soccer my whole life in a "no traditional market" for the game. So this elitist attitude towards the game here seems to wear blinders to block it's peripherals when dealing with other sports. I always try to remind people that baseball, basketball and lacrosse were all bred and fine tuned here north of the 49th. But of course, climate usually plays a role in people's opinions as to why those sports "suck" to them. It's ridiculous to be honest. I always laugh when I see a player interviewed after they are traded from say the Panthers to the Oilers. "I'm excited to come to a hockey market where the entire city embraces the team", blah blah blah. But lets be honest, I've been to Edmonton, and no offense to its denizens.....but who in there right mind would choose Edmonton over Miami? Having also been to markets such as Phoenix, Nashville, Los Angeles and columbus, I must say that the passion and love for the game amongst the fans there is equal to, or superior to some markets here. Let's face it, Canadians seem to take the game for granted. Saying hockey belongs here over the states when we're host to 6 NHL franchises, 4 in the AHL and 52 major junior teams in the CHL. The game is taken greatly for granted here. Very few are able to see past their own love for the game and recognize it in others from around the world. You look at the World Championships this year and you see Canada finishing 5th, with Europe sweeping all the medals, and Norway and Germany shocking all by placing 6th and 7th respectively. But here in Canada, where the game is "ours" and "belongs" here, there was barely anybody watching it. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who knows who won the gold once Canada was bumped for those who did watch.
Problem though, the court of public opinion up here will never change on this matter. So long as there are teams in the sunbelt in the NHL, Gary Bettman will continue to be the Great Satan of hockey. Which is to bad for the thousands of fans that exist in all those markets. With Winnipeg back in the league, little will change. There presence in Canada will not affect tickets sales in the other 6 cities. Save for Ottawa, the other 5 rinks have been sold out since the lock out.....regardless of the visiting team. So realistically, Winnipeg visiting these cities will not alter attendance anymore than say the Rangers, Thrashers, Blues or Predators would. So why does anyone up here besides those in Winnipeg really care so much? As you said, it's that innate entitlement that drives them. It makes them think they're more deserving of being a fan of the game over any fan in Atlanta. Which is a shitty reason to like hockey.
@Paul: Brunt already said that the announcement wouldn't be Tuesday, because Bettman didn't appreciate getting scooped. He said that once the article went out, he knew that Tuesday would be the only day there would be no announcement.
I am Canadian and I share the feeling that just because a city is in Canada it does not deserve a hockey team more than a southern US city. The factors that make a successful sports franchise (not just hockey) are many. Geography is certainly part of the equation I would think, but it is not the only factor. If that were the case then Winnipeg would still have a team.
I feel terrible for the Thrashers fans who might get their team ripped away from them. I can't even imagine what that would be like considering I am a Canucks fan and the likelihood of that happening to me any time soon is negligible. But I was a Grizzlies fan when they were moved and it sucked (and my second favorite team was Seattle Supersonics). Luckily I wasn't as much of a basketball fan as I am hockey so it didn't hurt too much. But I can understand how it feels on a lesser level. And it is not good.
But you can't blame Winnipeg fans for being so excited though. They have been really thirsty for the NHL for a long time and they have supported the Moose quite well. I doubt they are celebrating Atlanta's loss. They just aren't thinking about that part of it and you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand it.
So please don't bash any fans in this. It is an unfortunate part of the sport also being a business. It sucks, but it is our reality and the only way the fans can make an impact is by spending their money which for some of us (including me) is really hard to do when prices are so high.
Anyway, that is a long enough rant from me.
I dont understand why i keep being told that I dont 'deserve' MY hockey team. I have always supported and i have gone to plenty of games over the years. I went to 25 home games and 3 road games this past season. The problem is that alot of you folks havent followed the thrashers over the years, therefore you havent really heard of or seen the constant screwjobs, idiot business moves, lack of marketing, and just all around driving away of fans. We had plenty of fans the first 5 years or so but when ASG was in full force and started Suing eachother, yeah it got bad....REAL BAD! This was not the fans fault that this happened, and Winnipeg, i really feel for you and always have felt for you since the jets left. I have actually been right there with you for a number of years ,until my team was driven into this situation, wanting to bring back the jets because i know that you folks were heart broken, much like i am feeling right now, over losing them. We never really had a chance with this franchise. It is quite appearant if you have ever stayed here in ATL and been in Philips Arena a few times that the owners are much more invested in the Hawks than the Thrashers. I mean, how do you explain being below 26th out of 30 teams in cap all 8 years that you own it? MY answer: YOU DONT CARE AS AN OWNER!
I'm a Calgary fan, been that way all my life. However I am very happy to see the Jets return as it's like having a part of my childhood restored - which sounds weird I know. They must be thrilled in the 'Peg. Must be like when the Cleveland Browns returned, or when the NFL headed back to Baltimore.
I feel bad for Atlanta fans - I've already benefited immensely from their prior loss. You got a second chance, something so few cities get, but it's over. You can play the blame game, but you need A LOT of unsavory conditions to chase a pro sports team away from a city.
Hello out there, we're on the air, it's Hockey night tonight...perhaps in Manitoba. I am a transplanted Manitoban living in Southern Ontario, and I cannot wait for the opportunity to cheer for a team from my home town. I agree that where you're from does not make you more deserving of a team, as the city of Hamilton believes they deserve one, but don't support their Bulldogs... at all. This is a championship team, that averages less than 3000 people per game in a 16000 seat stadium. Whereas you have cities like Tampa, that love their Lightning, or San Jose and their Sharks. But, moving on from that point, the team, if it comes to Winnipeg, could be named the Jets, maybe even the Manitoba Jets, as long as they get the okay from Gary Bettman and the NHL. The NHL owns the rights to the name Jets and the logo, not the Phoenix Coyotes. With this being said, the reason Cleveland did not have this issue, with the Browns, was because it was contingent on the NFL team leaving that the identity and logos, and history of the Browns would legally stay in Cleveland and owned by Cleveland if an NFL team were to return. This same plan was made for the Seattle Supersonics. However this is not the case for the Winnipeg Jets'. In fairness I would greatly support a name change to Manitoba Jets', or the Winnipeg Falcons. But I don't support the Moose as and NHL entity. The last time a team in the NHL was promoted from a minor, the team failed and was absorbed into another (Cleveland Barons, Minnesota North Stars). As such the real question is would they choose the same colour scheme of Red, White and Blue? Or would they opt for the city colours of blue and gold? Time will tell. And if Atlanta keeps their squad, I hope their fans will appreciate the team more. Look at the Coyotes, their saga is not yet complete, maybe they might even move out of Glendale, and finally return to Phoenix.
I agree with both Iain and Nathan, just b/c Canada invented the sport doesnt mean that a team belongs there more than in southern America. However as Nathan said u cant blame Winnipeg for being so happy and i highly doubt every1 of their fans are sayin hahaha sucks for Atlanta now you wont have a team, I just think theyre so caught up in the love and passion for their team that they haven't had time to feel for the Thrashers fans. So i kinda disagree with you Chris i dnt think you should bash the jets fans as theyve been waiting 15 yrs for a team, i couldnt even imagine what that would be like living in philly. If a team was taken away from philly r fans would probly riot lol I wish there could be a way to keep both Atlanta and Winnipeg but like Nathan said its all about the money these days. The ones running the buis (like Bettman and owners of the teams) dont care 100% for those die hard fans (the ones who usually sit in the nosebleeds) and use the old excuse of the south isnt a place for hockey. Thats total bullshit if their are more than 10,000 fans in an arena their should be no reason for moving the team, Like many have said die-hards will take this seriously, im a die hard sports crazed fan and if any1 of my favorite teams Philly or non-philly were moved i'd be devastated. It's something you and your sports buddies look forward too every yr and are willing to shell out the cash to go to their favorite teams sporting event.
I digress, I have mixed feelings as well but I don't agree on the no love towards the Jets fans. (In a perfect world everyone would win, but money talks and unfortunately speaks louder than the hard working middle class or whatever class fans).
Nathan if that were the case than it would be the panthers that were moving and plenty more before it'd be atlanta, just saying, but imo im totally agiants relocation, i would've been fine if it was the coyotes, because they were originally the jets but, sometimes things dont work out and i feel for all the thrasher faithful
GO CAPS
In regards to your comments about the new monicker of the Winnipeg franchise. The notion that they are part of the "Phoenix" heritage may be true, however the NHL owns the rights to the Jets name and logo. If TNSE chooses to use the Jets name, they would be able to as long as the NHL approves it. With the considerable brand and name recognition of the Jets, it would be foolish to choose any other name.
One point to your comment "I still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey." - Its natural, and the same can be said about many US baseball fans. Try being a Jays fan watching the team in the "American" league.
Regarding the Thrashers - bottom line is that sports fans in Atlanta have the Hawks, Braves, Falcons and college teams that place ahead of a Thrasher team that has struggled. I feel for the true fans, but you could get 5-10,000 fans in Kansas City or Portland if you wanted to move a team there. I have no problem moving the team to a community that where hockey will be #1, like the Packers are to Green Bay, and if that is Winnipeg or another US market then so be it. You can't blame it all on the owners, if the owners were so bad and the community (including the business groups) wanted to keep the team in Atlanta, someone would have bought them for now, they been for sale for years.
Love the site and your passion for the game.
Fans are fickle, and loyalty is highest when a team is winning. Here in Vancouver, people tend to brag about the string of sellouts the Canucks have, but they forget about the salad days of the mid to late 90's when Rogers (then GM) Place was looking pretty bare on some nights.
Tampa Bay is never part of the discussion of weak NHL franchises for one simple reason: the team, despite some ups and downs, has consistently been a winner after some growing pains and has its name on the cup. If Florida, Phoenix, and Atlanta achieved similar levels of success, I doubt the prognosis would be so bleak for those teams.
But here's the other perspective: Winnipeg lost its team in a no cap era when the Canadian dollar was weakened. The NHL did nothing to stem the bleeding, and certainly never did anything as drastic as buy and operate the team until a suitable buyer and arena deal could be reached. Phoenix, however, gets endless chances, while people in stronger markets (like Vancouver) get to subsidize the weaker teams with equalization payments. Ticket prices in weaker markets or 'non-traditional' hockey markets are far cheaper due to lack of demand. Bettman keeps discussing eventual league expansion, and the names that come up are places like Las Vegas and Kansas City. The league bends over backwards to satisfy the demands of NBC, who can barely be bothered to broadcast games (one time pre-empting an NHL playoff game because of the Preakness). The NHL schedule for years clearly favoured eastern based teams in terms of travel.
Issues like these drive many Canadians crazy, because they feed into a perception, valid or not, that Canadians are treated like second-class fans of the game that dominates their hearts and minds. American media often treat the game like a joke, and hockey is arguably not even a top-tier professional sport in the US, having long been supplanted by NASCAR in the pecking order. The argument of geography is often used, but is not a valid one because teams can be successful regardless of location as long as they win. The problem is that when they don't win, no one is buying merchandise, season-ticket sales dry up, and local TV contracts become a joke.
I agree with Chris that too many Canadians have a sense of entitlement when it comes to hockey. But Jesus, can you blame them sometimes? I am not happy that a city is likely going to lose a team, but that doesn't mean hockey-starved fans in Winnipeg should have to tone down their anticipation. At least they care! The games will be well-attended and the team will be able to compete in the new era.
In 1995, 35,000 people showed up and rallied to keep the Jets in Winnipeg. In 2011, 200 people showed up and rallied to keep the Thrashers in Atlanta. It's not that the Canadian cities are more deserving than ANY American city for a hockey team, obviously they aren't. It's that this city in particular is more deserving than Atlanta and Phoenix, and probably more, sorry to say. When Winnipeg left, it was because they couldn't get an arena built. Not because there was no turn out. As for blaming the owners, ask any Leaf fan what they think of MLSE. There might be diehard hockey fans in Atlanta, but quite simply, there aren't enough. Same reason why the Expos moved to Washington. Grizzly's more to New Orleans.
I feel really bad for the Thrashers fans that actually cared about the team. But, correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't Atlanta had attendance issues for quite a long time? That tells me that not enough people cared about the team in the first place. Being from Pittsburgh, I hate to see Atlanta fans go through this because it is the worst feeling in the world...Just the thought of not being able to go to a hockey game makes me sick. But the NHL has made some stupid decisions when it comes to granting cities franchises. Maybe had the Thrashers had a winning team for longer than one season this wouldn't be happening, but lets be honest here...the NHL is a brand and that brand only succeeds when the people in a certian market embrace it. Tampa and Miami and Carolina have all had winning teams at some point and so its a bit different with them, but Atlanta didn't and so the brand never caught on. In Canada and anywhere in the Northern US the game catches on quicker since it snows and kids can actually go play without having to find a rink to skate at. Congrats to Winnipeg because they have patiently waited for a long time for the NHL but sorry for all of the Thrashers fans out there.
on the topic of the Moose potential relocation, i think it would be great for St. Johns to have a team. as far as i know, they dont even have a junior team
I'm still wondering: how can this team survive in Winnipeg, a market with only 700,000 people and an arena that sits only 15,000, and a smallish corporate base to match. I haven't even heard any plans to expand the arena to sit 17-18,000, which is pretty much the rule for NHL arenas. Are tickets going to be $300 each?
Maybe we all should ask what the team will be named when in plays in Kansas City, Houston, or Hamilton a decade from now.
Another worthwhile source: a poll on the Winnipeg Free Press' website, asking what the team should be named. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/If-an-NHL-team-returns-to-Winnipeg-what-should-it-be-named-122257964.html?viewResults=y
Jets was the clear favourite (62%). "Something else"--that is, something not listed among the choices--was a distant 2nd (11%), while Moose was a laughable 4th (FOUR percent!) behind 3rd place "Falcons" (9%). So unless TNSE is completely deaf to their market, they have hopefully realized in recent days that anything but "Jets"--particularly the undeniably unpopular "Moose"--would be PR suicide.
I'm glad you brought up the Cleveland Browns example, because I'd been thinking about that for awhile. When the Browns left Cleveland, there was an agreement at the time that Cleveland would get another franchise at the time of the next expansion. All of the Browns history, records, etc. stayed in Cleveland when the team left and became the Baltimore Ravens. Thus the Ravens have no official history before 1996. To my knowledge, no such deal was made when the Jets left Winnipeg, and thus the Coyotes history includes that of the Jets. Using the Browns as an example doesn't quite seem appropriate for this situation, and it might be difficult to bring in another franchise and call it the Jets, considering that the Jets history lives somewhere else.
I really appreciate those Canadians posting on this forum with some heart. It beats any other forum where I have seen responses from a lot of less-than-considerate folks, not just in Canada, but from some traditional hockey markets in the States as well. I am Thrashers fan, and have been one from the start. As an anecdote, I believe I got the first puck ever to fly into the stands during an official game setting. It was the very first preseason game, and the Thrashers were playing a game against the then-new Predators in Columbus, GA, home of the SPHL Columbus Cottonmouths. The puck flew into the stands during the pregame warmups, and my friend snagged it. I believe it was shot by Kelly Buchberger, and it caromed off the crossbar up over the glass. My friend gave it to me years later. I still have my ticket from the first game ever against the Devils. And I have articles from that first season talking about the new team. I went to the big party at Centennial Olympic Park where they revealed the logo and jerseys (which, admittedly, have always been really bad). Despite the never-ending disappointment of watching the team lose year after year, watching owners that don't care about the team let talent go for nothing, watching their marketing just fail to understand what makes hockey great...despite all these things, I have some really fond memories of the Thrashers and Thrashers fans, and always will.
I want people to know one thing about the Thrashers, it's this: hockey could have thrived in Atlanta. I believe it still can if a miracle happens. This is not the same city that lost the Flames. This is an international city that hosted the Summer Olympics. It's the 7th largest market in the country. It's full of people from other places, many of which are other hockey cities. I'm from L.A. and have friends from Minnesota, Chicago, New York, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and yes, a few locals. Hockey could have been great here. But this organization just failed. There is lots of blame to go around, but it just failed. Ineptitude.
I am happy that Winnipeg is going to get their team back. I am sure they deserve it and will support the team. I just wish it wasn't at the expense of my team. I am angry that the NHL didn't fight for Atlanta like it did for Phoenix and Pittsburgh. But mostly, I'm am just very sad that unless I move from the city where I have lived for the majority of my life, I will likely never have the opportunity to root for the home NHL team again. Atlanta will never get another shot, at least not in my lifetime.
I'd personally like to apologize for the vocal minority of Winnipeg idiots who have been disrespectful to the fans of Atlanta, Phoenix or southern US hockey. I'd bet good money that most of these half-wits weren't old enough to remember what it was like to lose the Jets, hence their lack of sensitivity.
Us Winnipeggers have been through so much to get a team back. Since Darren Ford started the Jetsowner.com campaign 8 years ago, we've been working toward this moment. During that time, most of us that believe the Jets could actually come home were called some pretty nasty names, especially by those in our own city. Those of us that have followed this campaign for 8 years are hardcore fans, but are also pretty level-headed.
However, the recent bunch that have jumped aboard the bandwagon - are the same people that called us "dreamers" and that "the Jets would never come back." And my gut tells me, that these are the same folks that have taken to verbally assaulting fans of Atlanta. They're idiots, they're a minority, and again, I truly apologize for their behavior.
My heart goes out to the hockey fans of Atlanta. I've been through this, and it was awful. With proper ownership, the NHL can work in Atlanta.
I don't think Canadians feel Winnipeg deserves the team because of geography, i think it's more of a cultural thing. I'm Canadian, and hockey is really the only thing that is uniquely Canadian in the world. Yes, other countries play it and produce high end players, but in no other country is hockey the number one cultural icon. We created the game, perfected it, produce the most top end players, etc. Lines from the classic book "The Hockey Sweater" are even written on the back of our $5 bill. I'm in Toronto, and even a new immigrant who has only been living here for a few months could tell you who the Toronto Maple Leafs are. I do feel for the many Atlanta Thrashers fans who are losing their team. And i am not anti-sun belt. Teams like San Jose are proof that hockey can succeed there. But i guess the beef that Canadians have with Gary Bettman is that he seems to overlook the cultural support teams get in Canada (not to mention teams like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver making Bettman's overall profit numbers look better than they really are). The fact is that Winnipeg is ready to support an NHL team, both financially and as a fanbase. A few hundred people went to Atlanta's final rally, whereas 35,000 went to Winnipeg's in 1996. I think that shows who wants the team more.
There just aren't enough fans in Atlanta to support a team there. The arena is half-empty every home game, tickets cost incredibly little, and only 200 fans showed up to the rally in Atlanta a few days ago. The team is losing money, and the ownership group direly wants to get rid of a liability.
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=366493
There aren't enough fans, not enough people showing up, and no money to be made by the owners in Atlanta. Atlanta has had two attempts at an NHL franchise: the Atlanta Flames relocated to Calgary in 1980, and now the Thrashers are expected to move to Winnipeg. Hockey doesn't seem to appeal to enough people in Atlanta; you'll have diehard sports fans everywhere, but you're going to have more fans in some places than others, sometimes because of the culture there.
It's unfortunate for the Thrashers fans out there, but many other cities don't have an NHL team at all, and they probably have their fair share of fans as well. Atlanta's losing too much money and something needs to be done.
Lets just face the facts here... It sucks that Atlanta is losing their second team but Atlanta has never really been an NHL town. They've never really embraced their hockey teams after the "new toy" feeling has gone away. Winnipeg is a city that desperately wants a team and if it isn't working out in Atlanta let Winnipeg have them.
In addition... As much as I hate to say it... It look like the Coyotes days in Phoenix are numbered unless something drastic changes. They will survive until the end of next year but then what? Where will they move to?
Like Iain, I too am a Calgarian and agree with most of what he says.
Put teams where the can be sustained by the fans. Sunbelt or not. Don't care where it is, just make the team profitable and fun to watch. I didnt get to see much of Atlanta, but the fan base to sustain the team just doesnt seem to be there. I don't think that it matters if they move to Canada or not. A good team will be appreciated no matter where they go. If the new Winnipeg team sucks, then I don't see too much support for them, kind of like when the Flames were the "Young Guns" in the late 90's. Man they sucked then and just barely survived. I remember season ticket campaigns where if there werent 13000 sold, then the Flames would probably be sold and move.
I look at teams like San Jose, who are in warm climates to set an example for the Sunbelt teams. Watching the Sharks in the playoffs and season every year, they keep saying how strong the fan base is. Thats great to see, now I dont know if it has to do with the fact they've been a great team for a long time now, or that there are that many fans. Since that area is short on teams to support, the Sharks are a perfect fit. I hope that the struggling teams can find some way to be successful, because I dont care where they are situated.
Go Canucks!
I think it would be a shame if the new Winnipeg/Manitoba team weren't called the Jets. I guess it's a bit more acceptable if Manitoba's used instead of Winnipeg, but eh. I think the legacy of a team can be with the cities as much as the team itself. Some people like cheering for the home team, and Winnipeg's home team was the Jets. This is especially true once the initial players have all cycled and really nothing remains of the old team. By using "Jets" again, you get a city's history of losing a team and getting a team again. You get the appreciation of having loved, lost, and loved again. Apparently you also get an over-exaggerated description from a hockey blog comment-poster.
On Atlanta's loss, what can you say? The NHL is a business, and we're reminded of that constantly. If they aren't making enough money to keep the team profitable, owners aren't going to hold on to a team just for the sake of the fans (though I could occasionally see exceptions - this isn't one of them). I certainly feel bad for the Thrashers fans, just as I understand the happiness of Winnipeg fans.
"I still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey."
I always laugh at that sentiment too, and I'm Canadian. This is mainly because it's not like a Canadian team is composed of Canadian players. In the Olympics I cheer for team Canada. In the NHL I cheer for my home town Ottawa Senators, and own two jerseys showing off the number of their Swedish captain (and I'll have a third with #11 on it if the new third jersey looks solid - I do not own a "SENS" jersey). Next to the Senators, I'm a Habs fan....okay fine, both of those teams are Canadian... But after that? I've been pulling for Tampa Bay to get to the Stanley Cup finals since the Habs lost (where, yes, I hope Vancouver beats them...but hey! I just enjoy watching Vancouver's game better right now, and Tampa's had a cup recently.) Overall it's about the teams and players you enjoy watching the most, and the enjoyment of being a long-time fan of a team through its ups and downs. In some cases that includes losing your team and getting a new one.
There's all kinds of things to enjoy about hockey. The fake hockey fans are the people who genuinely trash fans of other teams, or even cities in a riot after a loss. That's not the game. People who love the game appreciate everything about it; can appreciate even opponents scoring beautiful goals against the fan's own team, or accepting when it's clear that a member of their team took a deserved penalty, or how Gary Bettman can always do something surprising when you've already said a dozen times "well at least this is as bad as he'll get". I sense I've gone off on a tangent. I guess I hope that the Thrashers fans, if they lose their team, will still love the game and find a new team to enjoy over the seasons. May your future teams, whatever they may be, have better jerseys.
Enjoying the feedback on this post. Lots of people making very good points on every side!
One thing, though. San Francisco is a warm climate now? Good stuff.
Chris, us Canadians are allowed to have stereotypes of you folks too. I was proven wrong the first time I visited 'sunny' San Fran ;)
On the topic of stereotypes, I actually don't think most Canadians are happy to see the Thrashers leave. This Canadian would love for Georgians to have a team to cheer for. I do want Winnipeg to have a team, but not at someone else's expense. You can't blame the Winnipeg fans for being excited though.
What I can't figure out is why the NHL has bent over backwards to keep the Jets - er, Coyotes - in Phoenix, but Atlanta doesn't get that kind of help.
I can tell how the Atlanta fans would be feeling because my city is also a victim of relocation, but on a much smaller scale. In Saint John New Brunswick, we had the Saint John Flames of the AHL. In 2001 they won the Calder cup and not more than two seasons later they moved to Omaha, then to Illinios, then to Abbotsford. It hurt to have our team ripped away from us but the reason for the move was obvious. We didn`t have the space in our arena, on a sold out night for our Junior team the Sea Dogs, the arena only holds about 6000 people, and thats after we expanded our seating. Although now the pain has gone becuase of our now beloved Sea Dogs (Memorial Cup Finalists WOOOOO!!!!) I still can`t help buw wonder if the fan support might have grown over the past few years. Just this past season, we had a Flames night in which the arena was sold out to watch the Sea Dogs play in Flames uniforms. The attendance that there was compared to what i`ve read in comparision to many Hamilton Bulldogs games is almost double. So I feel for the Atlanta fans but I am also pumped to see another Canadian team. Not because I think we deserve it more, but because I want to see new rivalries in the league (Maybe my Canucks will finally have a rival that they don`t have to share with another team), and of course new jerseys. I think that if the Thrasher do move, and Betteman expands the league, one of the first places he should consider to expand to should be Atlanta. Of couse if you had an expansion that would mean that they would mean they would need more AHL teams, and I know a city that woudl welcome them with open arms. Sorry for the lack of paragraphing and possible lack of grammar.
It's a warm climate compared to Calgary! Actually, ask any Canadian and I'm sure they will just say below the 49th parallel is "warm climate."
Just read that the mayor of Atlanta is saying there is nobody coming to rescue them. I wish this was done already, I'm sick of hearing about it for years now starting with the Phoenix to Winnipeg rumours.
Atlanta really got the short end of the stick. Poor ownership. Which led to bad management, player instability, and ugly uniforms with too many colours.
On the topic of Winnipeg, the Jets name should be brought back without question. Besides the Cleveland Browns, the NBA SuperSonics name, colours, and history will remain in Seattle, should the NBA return to that city. Major League Soccer did it as well with the San Jose Earthquakes when the original franchise moved to Houston. I also don't like the idea of the Jets/Whomevers to be called Manitoba. Time to put the Winnipeg name back on the North American sports map. Afterall, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers do not play the likes of the NY Giants or the Chicago Bears. However, Winnipeg and not Manitoba, would play New York and Chicago.
@JACK,
ASG LLC did not have a clear title to the sale of the thrashers until December of 2010. Thats like me trying to sell my car while im still making payments to the dealership.
I Agree who cares if there are hockey teams in the South, I see people blasting teams in Florida, Carolina, Nashville & Dallas, and I hear them say that teams shouldn't be in places that it doesn't snow if that is the case then Vancouver shouldn't have a NHL team either correct me if I' wrong didn't they have to truck in snow for the moguls during the Olympics last year not saying they shouldn't have one but just trying to make a point) up here in Canada some people just don't get that people in the US are as die hard as any Canadian hockey fan and love there teams. Take a year ago people in the media were saying that the Lightning were in trouble, of course they didn't have a committed owner like they do now, thats what the problem in Atlanta is nobody to invest in the community like Mr. Vinik in Tampa, if they had that type of ownership them moving to Winnipeg wouldn't even be brought up. I wish that Winnipeg and Atlanta each had a team and everyone then all this uncertainity would be over and players could just play, Phoenix didn't play very well because of these distractions.
The one point missed in all of this is that Atlanta has already lost a team, and it was a pretty good team when they did. The Flames were one of the few expansion era teams to have a level of success early. And of course, up here, every pundit and ignorant fan to the game will say that ''if they had no fans then, no wonder it's failed." Problem is, back then there were fans, and several contributing factors out of there control, how very relevant. The lack of a TV deal, the competeing WHA, rising operating costs with stagnant draws at the gate thanks to a state of the art yet undersized arena for hockey. However, the Omni had amazing site lines as well as a fervent hockey fanbase around the team. Hell, the team made the playoffs in 6 of the 8 seasons while there. To think the city could lose a 2nd team, this time thanks to abysmal ownership, not due to lack of fans, is heartbreaking. I honestly don't care how excited those in Winnipeg and elsewhere in Canada feel. You lost the Jets for a reason, lack of proper facilities, lack of corporate interest, puny TV market and little local money. You also had plenty of opportunity to help save the team, but rather than rally early, there was this mindset that "the team won't REALLY be moved." Then at the 11th hour, there was a rally that put little dent into how much money was needed to be raised to keep them. Yet somehow now the circumstances are apparently better? A new arena, that at capacity actually seats less than the old one with no plans to add seats based on this idea that every game will be sold out, so those extra 2-3000 seats wouldn't matter....apparently. According to some 'Peg locals I've spoken to, the city has more money now to support a franchise. Well, news flash....SO DOES EVERYWHERE ELSE!!! It's this fascinating little thing called INFLATION. Back to every seat being sold for every game. Funny thing is, with a capacity at the MTS center of 15,015, and all 41 selling at 100%....had they played there for the 2009-10 season, the team would still come in at a league average of 26th. That's with 41 sellouts, behind such "underserving" cities as Anaheim (25), Raleigh (24), Columbus (23), Tampa (22), Dallas (17), Los Angeles (16) and San Jose (15). The only teams they would have placed above were, Nashville (by about 850 fans), Florida (by about 10 000), Colorado, ATLANTA, Phoenix and the Islanders. Hmmm, 2 of those are actually "hockey markets" by Canadian standards, curious. And Florida's totals did not include the 1 game overseas they were credited for a home game, considering they averaged 15 146 a game that season.....they to would have placed higher than Winnipeg. Just for an existing Canadian comparison, the Oilers who also play in an out-dated arena with a capacity of 16,839, played to 100% in 09-10.....and were 19th in the league. So yeah, there it is.
With the surprising successes of the Coyotes and the better numbers out of Colorado, I highly doubt much would change to these number with Winnipeg in the league. No matter what, they would be looking at around 25th or lower each season. So while the arena may be nice, it's still not appropriate for NHL hockey. And if you think the league hasn't looked at this, then you're blind. The arena size will likely be the axiom behind the board of governors nixing the relocation of the Thrashers. With that small an audiance even with 100% capacity, then how much of a draw would the 29 visiting teams really be?
Good luck Atlanta, I know it is a longshot, but I'd rather see the Thrashers coming to the Saddledome over the Jets or Moose, or whatever incarnation of Winnipeg team.
as a fan of the oilers living in calgary i have memories from the mid 90's when all 3 prairie teams almost left, luckily for edmonton and calgary they managed to stick it out and find the money to stick through it and now both teams are making money so i have no doubt that winnipeg will be able to make it work this time around
it is a very sad time for fans in atlanta and i truly feel bad for each and everyone of you. Winnipeggers really should feel very lucky to be getting a second chance especially because its the expense of another city and everyone should remember how that felt when the jets moved out all those years ago
maybe one day atlanta can get another chance with the right group of owners, but for now good luck winnipeg and cant wait to see some new nhl jerseys!!!
I don't know if this has been said yet, as I don't feel like reading the many walls of text that populate the comments section here, but would I believe the new Winnipeg team will be called the "Jets" again for two reasons
1) The new ownership group may be given the opportunity to purchase the naming and branding rights to the Jets from the Coyotes. Or they could simply take the name and run with it, in Cleveland Browns fashion as you said.
2) Technically, the Coyotes are currently an NHL-owned team so the naming rights are not actually theirs to sell at the moment. I could see the NHL simply giving permission to True North to use the name and logo for the new team.
I've heard a rumor that if Atlanta does move to Winnipeg, that they'll change the name to the Winnipeg Goldeyes, the same as their baseball team.
It's looking more and more very day that this is going to happen. I feel bad for Atlanta. Being from Philadelphia I don't know what it's ike to lose a team but I can imagine it's not a good feeling at all. My condolences to Thrashers fans and congrats to Winnipeg fans.
I'm from Edmonton, and I'll be the first to tell you Canadians are very biased when it comes to hockey. Yes they do feel a sense of entitlement with hockey teams, but many of them just don't realize that Canada does not have the lucrative major cities as the U.S does. I've had many talks with many different fellow Canadians who say cities like Saskatoon, Halifax, Regina etc all deserve NHL teams simply becuase they are a Canadian city (this doesn't apply to all canadian fans, just the hardcore "this is our game" type of fans). In my young, uncultured and uneducated opinion, yes the fans are passionate but the cities itself suck. I'm from Edmonton but even if I had the choice of playing in Edmonton/Winnipeg/Calgary or Tampa, I would most likely pick the later. But the Canadian biases doesn't just end with hockey franchises, alot of them are pretty biased against hockey players who aren't Canadian, and other leagues around the world. Again I'm not saying all of them, but alot of them do stereotype European hockey players and are blinded by these words they've made up called "heart and grit". According to alot of my fellow canadians only canadians themselves possess heart and grit and other players are "soft" and inferior which is very laughable. It's so bad that politicians take advantage of it and use hockey as a way to gain votes, which in my mind is wrong. It agitates me when I hear Canadians say certain cities and fans arent deserving of a hockey team. Okay the team (or sport) may not be popular in that area but who are you to judge and criticize the real hardcore fans of that team? the guys who actually do go out and attend games, buy the jerseys, and voice their opinions of wanting their team to stay in their city, these people are also fans of hockey, the only difference is they are not Canadian. I'm a huge fan of hockey so lets let the sport grow instead of trying to suppress it to one geographical location or just one group of people.
I know you can't stand the arrogant canadian fan, but i'm sorry we worked really really hard to build that. Maybe this is a way of saying welcome to the big leagues, i grew up my whole life with "hardcore fans" as so many put it. To me I'm lucky to say I grew up where you could stop school because of hockey, stay up late because of hockey, grandparents who support the same team their whole lives, wake up before school and play hockey with my cousins, play on a pond or a lake, and bottom line nobody cares about any other sport but hockey.... and they show it. After all that you have the NHL want to expand into markets who at first don't care, and treat hockey like a sideshow or "hobby". It really pisses us off! We see our home town guys win championships in towns where people don't seem to care until they are good. All we ask is centre your city all about hockey, talk nothing but hockey, play nothing but hockey, and if your city cant do that as much as some might want.... too bad!!! the hockey world doesn't want to wait around for you, what other sport has so many "experimental" teams. My home town would show up a few thousand fans, don't humour us with smashing old cars and wearing some dumb free shirt. We spoke up about all this and now we are seeing the brunt of it all, well bring it on, bring back the Jets, bring back Nordiques......and if you don't like it too bad, this is our life and if these cities really care, then fight back! because we are sick of all this!!
<<As a fellow hockey fan from a southern state, I feel for Thrashers faithful who are on the brink of losing the team they love.>>
For a Thrashers fan this has to stink. For the state of hockey in the "Sun Belt"...
For this conversation let's consider the Sun Belt teams to be the Southeast Division (minus the Caps), the California teams (minus the Kings) and add Phoenix and Dallas. I certainly don't hope we go back to a "Nothing in the South" NHL, but if one or two of those teams* moved I wouldn't be too scared. If a third team moves then I start to worry.
Whereas I'm certainly glad the NHL expanded southward, it did come at the expense of northern markets and I reluctantly have come to the idea it probably would be better for a couple of former markets up north to have hockey again. I am hopeful a Thrashers move would be represent a small correction and not a mass exodus.
*BTW, certainly would be a more disturbed by a Lightning move, even if they did beat my Caps in the playoffs. To me they've been sort of the model of Sun Belt teams.
@McBain - I live in a city called Sarnia, it is in Ontario, in Canada, and it is well below the 49th Parallel. I seem to remember a snowstorm that hit us in December that only had a state of emergency called, and with the wind coming off of Lake Huron, it can get quite cold here. (Conversely summer is very, very hot on account of humidity from said lake).
As far as this whole thing with the Thrashers. I too think that this is sad. I was astonished when I heard that Don Waddell had been given a promotion despite being easily one of the worst GMs in League history. Granted, he's never exactly had a reasonable budget to work with (calling it a shoestring budget would be generous,) but a team that has traded all of Ilya Kovalchuk, Marian Hossa, Dany Heatley, and Kari Lehtonen, and drafted Patrik Stefan with their very first draft selection, this team has had a terrible history of mismanagement.
I do feel sorry for the people of Atlanta, and those that do care for this team, as I've been following this story closely, even reading reports from Atlanta media outlets. It is a sad day when a city loses a professional sports franchise. However, the fans shot themselves in the foot. By not attending games, in protest of ASG, they made the franchise unattractive to local investors. So in the end, they only have themselves to blame. (though there is plenty to go around, I assure you)
Also, Chris, I want to expand on a point you made about the Cleveland Browns. The actual thing that happened from the NFL's standpoint is this. The Cleveland Browns suspended operations in 1995, while the Baltimore Ravens commenced play as a quasi-expansion team in the 1996 season. In 1999, when the Brown resumed operations, they were restocked using an expansion draft, but the team kept all records, and previous history associated with the team that had suspended operations.
Finally, and I want to expand on this as well. Everyone speaks as though the Coyotes are out of the woods. They may not be. Goldwater is still reviewing as to whether the $25 million ($US) payment is legal under the Arizona Constitution. They may still press this matter into litigation. If it is found to be illegal, this really creates a problem for the NHL.
Now, for those that might say that as a Canadian I feel entitled, I don't. I just want to see teams play in front of a packed house every night. If fan apathy in Atlanta, Phoenix, or Florida has done this to where the team isn't financially viable, they should uproot, and go elsewhere. I mention Florida as that is easily the best example of franchise mismanagement in the history of the League, as the team began the wrong way, thus creating fan expectation that this will be a contending team every year. Advice to the current owner, treat it like an expansion team, blow it all up, start over, following an established template, like San Jose, or Detroit, or Nashville. The fans may put up with anothef half-decade out of the playoffs, but its worth it to see my team compete for the Stanley Cup for two decades or more.
" still have no patience for any Canadian who innately thinks their geography makes them more deserving of hockey." A bit touchy aren't we, sport? Get over it...You will never understand what it means to be Canadian and why hockey means what it does to us, so why the comment? So instead of wasting everyone's time with comments such as these, how's about just stick to what you enjoy doing the most, showing jerseys! We all love hockey and lets leave it at that.
Haha!! "Sport."